Credit Union Exam Solutions Presents With Flying Colors

Treichel: Hey everyone, this
is Mark t Trico with another

episode of With Flying Colors.

As I mentioned in my emergency podcast
earlier in the week, I've got a Allstar

team of X-N-C-U-A folks to talk about.

All things NCA, but particularly focus
on the recent announcement of Kyle

Halman going to the P-C-A-O-B and what
that might mean, what it might not mean.

On my screen, on the upper
left, I've got Jeff Pacino.

Jeff how you doing today?

Good.

Doing good.

And Alonzo lower left hand corner.

How are you today?

Alonzo Swann: Fabulous, Matt.

Treichel: All right.

And John Ney lower right hand corner.

You good as well?

Alonzo Swann: Yes, sir.

Treichel: All right guys.

And Jeff, former NCUA board member
currently runs Bino and Associates.

Alonzo former examiner all the way
up to regional director at NCUA

currently works with the Federal Home
Loan Bank of Atlanta and John Ney.

John Ney, LLC.

Helps credit unions negotiate the
the world of Washington dc Anything

else on your backgrounds you
want me to throw you, you want to

throw in there before we dive in?

Geoff Bacino: You glossed
over my NCA tenure,

Treichel: oh, I did.

Geoff Bacino: Deliberate.

Treichel: Yes.

It wasn't deliberate.

I called you all NCA on the front
end, but you were there during the

corporate crisis and let's get more
liquidity and Roman's burning stage.

Geoff Bacino: Yeah, I'm glad
you didn't say I was responsible

for it, but yeah, I was

about to say that.

Are those two events not
mutually exclusive, but they are.

I was on the hill when the SNL crisis
blew up and then I came to NCA.

So you can draw your own conclusions,

Treichel: it's just the pendulum.

So guys, I was it last week?

I got a little birdie, sent me an
announcement of a press release that says,

Hey, this is, didn't even say anything.

They just sent me that and
I saw Halman was leaving.

And I thought, okay, when
did, what else did I miss?

Who's coming?

And then shortly thereafter, Kyle
Halman and NCUA came out with their

statement and where's the statement here?

To the brief statement said he's
a appointment to the P-C-A-O-B.

He says, I'm grateful to President Trump
and Chairman Atkins for their faith in me

and for the appointment to the P-C-A-O-B.

Here's the word that, here's
the sentence that says it all.

I intend to remain in my role as NCA
chair until my successor is appointed

by President Trump and confirmed.

By the US Senate.

As I read that there, right now,
I think the key word is intent.

It's kinda like the word may.

It's stronger than May,
but it's not a definite.

I'll throw that out there.

But guys let's talk about.

What this means for the process, what
it means for the help, excuse me.

The harper the ska lawsuits.

Not necessarily who might be coming
in, because that's always a crapshoot,

but who wants to dive in first?

Geoff Bacino: All right.

Nobody raised their hand, I'll take it.

First of all, this was not unexpected.

Kyle's term expired back in August.

And as I think we agree, you're
not allowed to succeed yourself.

Kyle's, Kyle was going to
be going somewhere else.

He'd been rumored as I know
John and Alonzo and you, mark

know, I've been rumored a couple
places that he'd like to go.

But the interesting thing about
presidential appointments and

politics, you don't always
get to go where you wanna go.

As I said, not unexpected.

I guess the next thing, obviously,
as you talked about intend to stay is

what does this mean for credit unions
and what does this mean for NCUA?

And I think the first thing is.

Obviously right now the president
can appoint the chairman

because the chairman's seat
is the one that would be open.

The other two, because of the slaughter
lawsuit and the and Todd and Tanya's

lawsuits, I think they've gotta, hold on.

I don't think they could, I don't
think they can fill those two yet.

Basically because I contend to, if
you do so and you lose the lawsuit, it

creates a game of, NCA musical chairs.

'cause I would assume that.

If they win the lawsuit that Todd
and Tanya will be at 1775 Duke Street

the next morning saying, okay, we'd
like to get back into our office.

If you've already got two people
in those offices, it's gonna be, as

they like to say, a little awkward.

I think, as I said, it was the
natural progression as term was up.

It's a nice landing spot for him.

I think he's earned it and deserves it.

But then for credit unions,
I think you need to get, you

need to get someone there.

As the chairman before he would leave

it.

I've been in mentally dividing these
appointments into kind of two lanes.

The one that Jeff just described
where Chairman Halman would

be replaced by somebody.

So that's one lane.

And then you have the other that
involves the other two empty seats.

Just the way Jeff described it, and
it's entirely, those two are entirely

contingent on what the Supreme Court
decides in the, in, in the Slaughter case,

which is really about this Humphrey's
executor 1930s obscure Supreme Court case

that really decides whether a president
can remove independent directors or not.

That's been rumored to be that, that
meaning the Supreme Court case, it's

going to be decided between now and June.

Somebody used to work for the Justice
Department told me last week that they

thought perhaps some more decisions
would be handed down February 20th.

So we're be, those of us who do this
for a living, or at least in the

amateur, amateur way, like I do try
to I'm gonna have to be watching the

Supreme Court website on the 20th
to see if any decision is made, but

that'll start the the dominoes falling.

But back to the Halman.

It's, Kyle has been serving
in a holdover capacity.

I don't, I, I don't believe he's ever
said these words to me, but others

on Capitol Hill who know him have
said that he is a prime candidate

for other regulatory positions.

So this is a good one.

And I think it's one that lends
itself to a lot of the expertise

he's shown on the board.

To his next spot.

Treichel: Alonzo Alonzo, I
have a different, a follow up

question for you, but any thoughts
on what we've said so far?

Alonzo Swann: Dito I agree
with both Jeff and John.

I think that's gonna happen.

One thing I do expect just to add
to it is that is an appointment for

a replacement for Kyle any day now.

So I think that'll happen.

It may be waiting for
that February 20th date.

John, but I do expect
it to happen real soon.

Treichel: Then, and then we hear
the name, and then it goes through

that whole process of getting
vetted and Senate approval.

And so let's go on the assumption
that by Friday we hear a name.

What does that mean for the arc of
possibly getting that person in there

so that they can be chair so that
Helpmann can go over to do what he's

been selected to Do we, what are we
talking 90 days, 60 days, 180 days?

Geoff Bacino: That's a very tough
question to answer because the

senate has, is, or it's always
tricky and somewhat contentious, but.

The timeframe is gonna
be very hard to guess.

I wouldn't be surprised if nominees were
not waiting until these early summer to,

Treichel: And then you get into early
summer, the other two positions are up,

and you could see, you get into that.

Does he put two R's in and not do the D,
which you would never, even, those words

would never even come out of my mouth.

In a different administration.

But in this administration, that's
theoretically a possibility, right?

Two Rs.

And they just say, Hey,
we're gonna skip the D.

You could have all three come in.

But it really is a cornucopia of who
might come when, how many might come.

And Alonzo, so my follow up for you as the
staffer at NCUA, like me, when I think of

these things, I think about, the agency
just went down to 25, 20 7% of staff.

The you got one board
member instead of three.

When you have three,
you gotta count to two.

When you got one, you gotta,
you gotta count to one.

But when that one's leaving, and you
might have one, two, or three coming,

and 27% of your most experienced
staff left and you have 11 acting

directors, when they issue, here's our
leadership and 35% of them say acting.

I've coined it as NCO a's
a little bit in chaos.

And it's good to get movement to
where you might be going, but it

just adds to the unrest of staff.

Any take on that?

Alonzo Swann: Like you said, counting
one is a lot easier, particularly

when that one's been there for a while
and you're in sync with him already

and he set his tone and it's not
significantly different than what it

has been from a staffing level except.

Fair lending, maybe that lane.

But I think it's steady as you go.

I think NCA is adjusting
definitely what I the reduction.

It's not only a reduction, but it's
a reduction in places that you lease

could afford it, if that makes sense.

And that's one of the dilemmas.

So I really think you had
a expertise gap right now.

You get up to speed, everything
is fine as long as the economy

remains stable, if you will.

I think that's a big deal as
long as your larger credit unions

remain stable, if you will.

All that being said I think
it's steady as you go.

You just keep on going.

Interesting thing, of course
with Kyle is as his chief of

staff is a key component as well.

That's one of the, maybe Jeff and
or John if with Sarah Bang there.

I think that's very important
for continuity purposes.

If I were coming in particularly
as a Republican, I think

she's a key component in.

Whether she'll stay over or
whether she's going with Kyle.

So those questions have
to be answered as well.

But I think just from a staff perspective
your feeling with Kyle there, or

not that talent drain right now, but
you already got you, you already got

a floor, so you know where it is.

It's just keeping going there.

But I am hearing that the expertise has.

Treichel: You're hearing some of the
same things I'm hearing and experience.

Yeah.

I get that.

And on the Sarah Bank concept, it's like
when Mike Reel departed and Mark McWaters

came in and Sarah Vega transitioned
creating a political appointee

position where there was some holdover.

And helping educate.

'cause these board members are
bright people when they come in, but

sometimes they have to learn credit
unions, sometimes they have to learn

credit unions and how NCA works.

Sometimes they have to learn those
things and how government works.

So that's a good point.

And Jeff John, any thoughts
on what Alonso added there?

Geoff Bacino: I actually went back in
the history books and looked at the

very first three member NCA board.

Which would've been, which
was seated, I think 1980.

And you mentioned Mark a minute
ago that you could have the two

Republicans and no Democrats.

There actually has been a situation
where the other party, if you

will, has not been represented.

First board had two Democrats and an
independent the two Democrats of course

were Larry Cannell, who was the former
banking supervisor in Connecticut.

A guy named Pa Mack, who was the chief
of staff to a se senate Democrat,

and then a guy named Harold Black,
who was a professor of economics in

Tennessee, who was an actual independent.

So you didn't have any Republican
representative on the first board.

I'm not saying that's healthy or
good, and I wouldn't condone it.

And I think a balanced mixed approach
is better for everybody, but it's

not completely unprecedented to have.

The parties completely
shut out of the board.

Like I said, I hope that I hope that
by the time we do another one of these

market to celebrate 4th of July, I hope
we have a three member board and it's got

two, and I hope it's got two Rs and 1D
because that's the way you expect it when

you have a Republican in the White House.

But I, I don't, I.

I know you don't have us on this podcast
to say, I don't know, but I don't know.

I will say that I'd be surprised.

Here's a prediction.

I'll be surprised if when the Senate
decides to have hearings on nominees,

I'd be surprised if they don't
have the nominee for n NCAA's chair

sitting next to chairman Houtman.

When he's testifying about his new role.

So in other words, EE they move in tandem.

I would guess

Treichel: That would be nice
for the NCA person, right?

Because they're not the main meal.

They're more of the appetizer then?

Geoff Bacino: Every they always do.

They'll do all instead of, unless
it's somebody like the Fed Chair

or the Secretary of the Treasury,
they'll do a whole bank of witnesses.

Treichel: Yeah.

And not having opinions.

You reminded me of my favorite I
shouldn't mention 'em 'cause they suck

the Minnesota Vikings podcast where?

Every Thursday they do
reckless speculation, right?

And they, the same guys have a Minnesota
Timberwolves podcast with reckless

speculation with Giannis on Puco.

And I know I probably just said
his name wrong, coming from

the bucks to the Timberwolves.

But my reckless speculation is
that when we get to a board,

there's either gonna be one r.

Two hours or I, I just, I'm not
contemplating the scenario I see

where there's three, the reckless
speculation is that Todd and Tanya win

their lawsuits and Tanya comes back.

So that's just, that's
my reckless speculation.

It's seven in the morning on Thursday.

If it's Thursday.

Geoff Bacino: That's a smart,
that's a smart prediction.

That's always possible.

Treichel: That's my hail Mary.

All right.

Geoff Bacino: So you wanna mention John?

If you don't mind, one quick.

Yeah,

Treichel: Yeah, absolutely.

Geoff Bacino: I know we, ideally it works.

I think these places work best with
two of the party in power and one of

the art of the party, or three, and
then two, whatever the breakdown is.

I think the party crossover is important.

Having said that, over the last couple
years, you could make a case that if

you control the Senate, you really don't
have to worry what party someone else is.

In other words, if I say I'm a Democrat.

And the White House is okay with that.

And the Senate's okay with that.

And I'm a Democrat, I've
made this statement before.

What if Donald Trump Jr.

Was a registered Democrat in the
New York primary, a Democrat?

I'd say absolutely not based on
everything else, my point is the kind

of chaos you were mentioning earlier
in the administration and the NCA

could lend itself to someone saying,
look, here's your three board members.

In the Senate, if you got 51 votes right
now because of what Harry Reid did years

ago, you can approve all three of 'em.

And again, the only really safeguard
that you have that someone is

a party of, the other power is
the White House and the Senate.

And since there's really no way
for anyone in the Senate on the

Democratic side to stop anything,
you can nominate who you want having.

Jeff,

by the way Jeff lives in a state where
you don't have to register by party.

Jeff, if you say you're a
Democrat, I believe you.

If you say you're a
Republican, I believe you.

You say you're an independent.

I believe you.

I'm in state Maryland where you
have to register by party, so they

know all my neighbors know who I am.

But John, if there were a demo, if
there were a Democratic president and

a Democratic senate, and I could, and I
had enough ties, I could pawn you off as

a Democrat, I know something you may not
wanna be pawn off as who's gonna stop it,

right?

That's information.

Again, it, there's your reckless
prediction that, you nominate three of the

same party, or you don't nominate anyone.

That's a Democrat.

But either way, I think
the best thing for.

Credit unions and NCA is to
get this put behind them.

And I think the first step is obviously
to get someone to replace Kyle.

He gets to move on and we
get to move on as well.

Treichel: Makes, go ahead,

Alonzo Swann: Liza.

Just to give you my, my thought

and again, my thoughts are more on
a regular continuum, if you will.

Number one, I think if I were Betty
Mann, I think the person who would be

nominated for Kyle's position will be.

A credit union person, if you will.

It won't be a person we don't know.

That's my prediction.

Does that make sense?

So it'd be an insider who knows
credit union somebody who's been

in credit unions, if you will.

When we get back to two Rs and one B, if,
and this is my personal opinion I think

one of the dilemmas that anybody had, and
is when you have a former chairman who

now becomes a board member, Todd Harper.

I say that because I wouldn't want
that if I were the Republican.

If I had, if I were coming in as a
new chairman, I definitely wouldn't

want the former chairman on the board.

So I say that because I wouldn't
mind Tanya as the third person.

So I could see that scenario coming
up to compromise, if you will.

Treichel: That's that,
that's an interesting take.

That's that's better than
reckless speculation.

And of course, the former
chairman who's led the agency,

who knows how how the trains run.

Who knows that what authorities the
chair has and maybe how the other

board members can throw kinks in that.

And those where the bodies are buried
is a different person to contend with.

Power wise and just understanding wise,

Geoff Bacino: I, I'm gonna
violate my own self-imposed

rule and say I have an instinct.

This is slightly counter to what this
is, counter to what Alonza just said,

although when Alonza says something,
I tend to give it a great deal of

weight because I think he actually.

He's talking about unlike
myself and maybe Jeff.

But I think this might be somebody who
the Trump administration already knows

and has appointed to something else.

I'm not sure if they know or care if it's
a person with who's from our industry.

Maybe I'm wrong.

Maybe there's somebody out there.

In the credit union world, who is
a very connected Trump person, but

something in my spidey sense tells
me it's going to be somebody who they

know more than someone who we know.

That's just a guess.

Treichel: And sometimes
people come back, right?

Debbie Matts came back.

Rodney Hood came back.

And so there could be when you look
when you go back at that chart of

who's been here, who's been political
appointees, you can you can look at

a list and maybe come up with some
names and go, aha, they might know this

person, they might know that person.

And without getting into specifics
of course but you can look

at those tea leaves and say,
Hey, maybe that makes sense.

And again, it could make sense.

Geoff Bacino: Well, John brought up
John brought up the initial board

at NC Way, and again, if you look
at, if you look at almost everyone.

Up until a couple years ago, it usually
consisted of people who I don't wanna

say didn't know credit unions, but if
you go back, even as far as someone

like Ed Callahan, Callahan was the
Department of Financial Institutions

head in Illinois, new Credit Unions.

But after that, then you've gotta go the
next one up would've probably been Bob

Swan and then Dave Chatfield, and then
Dennis Dollar, myself, Gigi Highland.

Metzker to a degree,
and then it just stops.

Okay.

Didn't Friel have some kind of

Yes, you're right.

I'm sorry.

Yes.

Friel was the Department of
Financial Institution, so thank

Yeah.

Yeah.

But again, I pointed this out maybe
during our last call or the one before

that the board, right before the
Trump administration fired two people,

that board was made up entirely of
capital, former Capitol Hill staffers.

Okay.

Which tells me that this, that an NCE
appointment, which used to be something.

People either took, if they didn't get
something else, I'll allow Roger Jepson.

But very few people, as I said, you
gotta you take, Callahan, Jack, field

Dollar, me and Gigi and Mike out of it.

You got people who really
didn't know the agency.

And my, and Mark and Alonzo, you
guys talk about when someone comes

in, they don't know the agency.

I think it's gonna be interesting to see.

You know that if this trend continues.

Because where Kyle is going, the
P-C-A-O-B, the Public Company Accounting

Oversight Board, that thing was created.

Make sure I'm writing on this, John,
with what piece of legislation was that?

It was not Dod Frank.

It was one, I think it was it HE the home.

Oh no, I thought it was
the one with the SEC stuff.

Anyways, my point is.

I looked at that position when I was at
the finance board, but everybody then

had all come from the hill too, because
they know it was a great place to go.

So my point is, moving forward
with NCA Board nominations,

are they gonna start to become.

People who just understand that
they're there and coming from the hill,

which is again, great knowledge, but
very limited credit union knowledge.

Or will it start to be a little bit more
spread out the way it's been in the past?

I would take my, my, the board I
was on, you've got Dennis dollar.

CEO from Mississippi, Yolanda
Wheat, Harvard and Stanford trained

lawyer and me, who's been in credit
unions in some form for a while.

It's just, it's an interesting thing
and I will just digress into this.

Mark.

I hope I don't step on your line here.

If it if it were to change, to
where the president has the ability.

In other words, if the White House wins
the slaughter court case and he can, he

or she, whoever the president is, can
fire board members, it's gonna set a

real issue in place, number one as to
whether someone would even take the job.

Sure.

More importantly.

Number two, would someone
take the job with, say, a year

left in a president's term?

In other words if that goes
through and they try to fill

a slot in this administration,
people, okay, Trump's leaving in

2028 and it's 2027 or late 2026.

Do you want, if you're from out of state,
do you wanna move here to take this job?

Knowing you could be out of it in
January of 2029 if a democratic president

comes in and says, you know what?

See ya.

What's gonna happen, I predict
would be every agency on January

21st of inauguration year is
gonna be like, okay, see you.

You gotta go.

And that's gonna create some real havoc.

And as I said, it will create some
trepidation on the part of people who

might be very qualified and wanna do
it, saying, eh, it's not worth it.

Treichel: It's gonna change
the pool of who's interested.

No doubt.

Yeah.

One way or the other.

Geoff Bacino: Yep.

Treichel: I wrote down a couple words
here, so I wouldn't for forget them,

but I, John, I you might, did you have
any thoughts on what Jeff just said?

I thought No.

No.

Okay.

And the, the P-C-A-O-B being a good place
to land when that little birdie sent me a

note saying, Hey, look where Kyle's going?

I, there was some reasons also put as to
why it was a good place to go, and that

was the difference in pay at that place
versus being a board member at NCUA.

But in this, so I, I got my Google
machine out and I saw that they

reduced the pay for the board
members there by between 42 and 52%.

As good as this job, as it used as,
as good as it get, as it used to be.

It's about half as good
as it used to be too.

So yet it still pays more
than what the NCA Board does.

There that popped into my head and
then Jeff, when you were talking about

if you have control of the Senate.

So the light bulb that goes on in my
mind then is, okay, so between now and

midterms, there has to be some sort
of resolution or no, midterms won't

impact it 'cause that's the house.

So nevermind.

So they're, it's a long game, right?

Geoff Bacino: Yeah, John.

John will tell you've also
got control of the Senate.

I don't think the Democrats
can win it, but it is up.

I think they're gonna
pick up seats, though.

I think it'll make it, it'll be a closer
margin, but I think a lot of this is

gonna be resolved before November.

I'd be surprised if there weren't.

Treichel: Got

Alonzo Swann: it.

I agree with that.

I agree with that.

Treichel: Very good guys.

So what else around the edges of this
this particular topic do we wanna

chat about and if nothing there?

The general state of affairs of all
things, all other things at CUA?

Geoff Bacino: I'll give
you a segue to that.

I, I wanted to mention, I
made a mental note to myself.

We're on the cusp of the time when
the NCA has to revisit the the

interest rate ceiling, and you now
have Chairman Haman's appointment and

you also have the recent stir about
interest rates, initiated by the

president's tweet in favor of a 10% cap.

I just wonder I'd actually like
your everybody else's opinion.

This all seems to mix together
now in a very interesting fashion.

You wonder what kind of pressures there
are gonna be about resetting the policy,

especially if the chairman now has an eye,
he's not yet, not one foot out the door.

'cause he's going to, he's pledged
to serve in a full capacity.

But you just wonder how everything
affects everything else.

It's like Earl Weaver used to say
everything changes everything.

Right?

Treichel: And three run homers.

Geoff Bacino: Pitching
defense three run Homer.

Yeah.

Treichel: That, that's interesting.

I have a couple thoughts on the
interest rate thing, but Jeff Alonzo, I,

Alonzo Swann: Agree.

One of, one of the things I'm
seeing my opinion is right now

with that one person board.

The items coming before the
board are for lack of a better

term, pretty non-controversial
paying board members for daycare.

Stuff like that.

The interest rate ceiling is not
non-controversial, so that'll be

interesting to see if it's a one
person board whether you do that.

I think either John or
Jeff mentioned earlier.

That anything approved, obviously
under that one person board,

it may be subject to a lawsuit.

Is that, am I remembering
correctly, gentlemen?

Geoff Bacino: I've made that assumption.

I think so.

And I think John had backed

Yeah I think that's very good observation.

Alonzo.

Ed, go ahead.

Alonzo Swann: So when, yeah, I
don't know when that when the

interest rate ceiling comes up,

Geoff Bacino: March,

Alonzo Swann: but that will be
a timeline that you try to get.

At least one other board member,

Geoff Bacino: It'll be March.

And you assume maybe they
discuss it at the February

board meeting if there is one.

Treichel: And I'll say on the interest
rates and I'll preface this with, I'm

paraphrasing and this is roughly correct,
but putting my executive director

hat on in order to maintain it at 18.

You have to be able to look at the
period in time since the last time, and

either reference stability or instability
or rate increases of some sort.

'cause I remember one time
a big discussion where.

Rates had only gone down yet.

They wanted to keep it at
18 for obvious reasons.

And they had to cherry pick like a two
week period where rates blipped up as

their argument to comply with the act.

Adding that flavor to what might
need to be done there is one thing.

And and then general comment.

The what.

What we're seeing is mundane on the
agenda, but what's happening by notation,

vote on reorgs and things is huge.

And the, I've talked about it here
that I hear rumblings that offices are.

Disappearing going away.

This spot's moving over that spot.

Yet they're not talking about it publicly,
which I think is a bad precedent.

And I think and I'm gonna get up
on, on a soapbox here, there's

been a general trend over the last.

3, 4, 5, 6, 7 years to do
more by notation, vote and

do less in the sunshine.

And that's not good.

And this, and then going back
to the chaos of staff, right?

You've got staff lost.

A lot of their leaders, staff knows.

This might be going away,
this might be going away, but

we're not saying it publicly.

And then you get, that, that
whole acting thing, right?

When a third of your directors are
acting you, you tend to, some people

take actings and say, I got this job.

I'm gonna do it.

Darn it.

Others say, Hey, I'm just a temporary
I'm the third string quarterback.

When the starting quarterback gets back.

They're gonna wanna they don't want
me to screw it up in these two games

I'm gonna play, maybe we can win
one, maybe we can lose the other.

So that I threw a lot on the table there.

You can you, any thoughts on any of that?

Geoff Bacino: Still water's definitely
a running deep at the agency.

You're like you said, the
board meetings are not that.

That full of melodrama and action
and a lot of substance on the,

in terms of new regulation.

But yeah, there isn't,
I've heard the same things.

I'm sure the other two gentlemen
on the call have heard a lot of,

from their friends at the agency.

There's a lot of reshuffling and
movement around and uncertainty.

But I, I've said this, I think when you
had us all together last summer I got

a, I think I had a moment to say that,
the basic blocking and tackling of what

the agency is doing seems to be going,
from what I hear from credit unions,

the exam process continues to move.

People are still angry at
their a, an examiner sometime,

and not angry other times.

But I guess what I'm saying is
the main mission of the agency is

continuing to be fulfilled, obviously.

To Alonzo's earlier point, as long as
things say stay stable in the economy,

Alonzo Swann: yeah,

Geoff Bacino: things are gonna be fine.

But yeah I think a lot of the internal
I've heard some of the uncertainty

about the internal machinations has
started to affect morale in some spots.

But I also notice a lot of people
just have gone out the door so that

it's not their problem anymore.

Treichel: Very true.

I said in my emergency podcast,
don't worry, it runs itself right?

Because there's these delegations
of authority that establish, which

is equivalent of the Bible, of what
you can tell, what you can't do.

And that's the blocking and tackling.

And even though, and I, every time I talk
about losing staff and the challenges

of losing all that corporate knowledge,
there's a lot of great people at NCA.

That are now gonna have new
opportunities, there'll be some

efficiencies that come out of it.

And hey, when you tell a credit
union, you're gonna have 30% less

examiners in your room for two weeks.

That, that sp as a positive, right?

Geoff Bacino: You talked
about the notation.

Vote.

I gotta tell you, I will give
you a 110% backing on that.

I hated notation votes.

And when I was at both NCA and then at the
finance board, I would really fight like

hell to say, look, unless it's fairly.

Harmless, and something that's easy to do.

I always wanted us to at least discuss
it in front of the general public.

The last NCA board meeting, John
and I were the only civilians there.

We were the only non NCA staff, I
think if I read the room correctly.

That's true.

But you are right.

They're gonna have to start to
do some non-controversial stuff,

and whether that's Kyle or his
successor I think it's important

that you start to set a precedent.

Yes.

Other than just taking reports and
doing some, doing some kind of easy

things that the chairman's gonna have
to, I think, make some tough calls.

And, with the interest rate, with
the interest seal up in March, it

looks he or she, if it's not Kyle
is gonna have to make that call.

I guess I would say.

Man, I hope it's Kyle, because if
that's the first thing you've gotta

do when you're taking a job it's
gonna make for a tough first week.

You guys know what it was like
to train us board members.

It was not always easy and that first
couple weeks, it is literally drinking

from a hot fire hose as to what you
can can't do, and what you know.

Treichel: Said.

Guys, we're we're running up
against our clock final thoughts.

Let's let's start with John in
the lower right hand corner here.

Geoff Bacino: I think that,
again we've laid out and I,

and a lot of the uncertainty.

Uncertainty's been the watch
word here at the agency for a

long, for almost a year now.

Uncertainty doesn't
necessarily mean, instability.

But I, 'cause I think that
things continue, as I said

a minute ago, to function.

I think that here it is, early February,
I think by by the spring we're gonna

start seeing some certainty, at
least when it comes to appointments.

I think the interest rate
ceiling issue will have resolved.

Who knows, they're al
always jokers in the deck.

Who knows what surprises are gonna come.

I will say that on the other side of the h
the house where I do a lot of business of

Capitol Hill credit unions have been very
focused on the credit card issues and how,

the presidents in two tweets essentially,
continue, put all the focus on credit

card in the 10% interest rate cap and
then the credit card competition act.

So those are things that are taking up a
lot of oxygen in the congressional sphere.

Treichel: Got it.

And Alonzo, last thoughts?

Alonzo Swann: Yeah, just on the reduction
in staffing, and I gotta say this, I

think what, I think the adjustment period
will, and getting staff up to speed.

I think it's happening right now.

One of the disappointments that
I had quite frankly, when we when

NCA brought out merit was it was
automating efficiency tool and the

agency did not become more efficient.

So basically what I say
is we got the data faster.

NCOA got the data faster got
more of it, but instead of.

Reducing or looking for
other the efficiency of it.

We more the agency more so dug
deeper, if that makes sense.

So instead of being, you got a
more efficient digging where we

were, so now we can dig deeper.

I don't think that was necessary.

So I think the reduction will actually
put the efficiencies in place as intended.

And you take out the reputation
risk part of it just.

We'll accelerate it, if you will.

Treichel: Interesting.

And the other merit the thing of
merit that I think they could fix,

going back what, where Aries was
better than merit was the checklist

that they shared with credit unions.

They put that more in a black box
and some of that transparency left.

Jeff, final thoughts?

Geoff Bacino: I guess as Kevin Bacon said,
at the end of Animal House, remain calm.

Exactly.

And I just figured, pretty soon I
think we're gonna have a new chairman

and then I think shortly thereafter,
once the slaughter case is decided and

ruled upon, then I think you probably
follow the other two after that.

Frankly the back of the White House
always continues working on these.

If it's like this White House like
any others, and I can't speak for

it, but they're always working on
the nominations and appointments.

They know what's open.

They know what's ready.

They're talking to people.

Ideally they're prepared for.

They're prepared for what would happen
if they win the case, what name or

two names do they have to send up?

I guess I would echo what John and Alonzo
said, and that is, look, the agency is,

I don't wanna say running itself, but I
think they're continuing to do a good job.

'cause I think they know what they do.

The things we're hearing
are under the surface.

And frankly I just think I think
some of this gotta give some credit.

Getting, give credit to Kyle and to Sarah.

For basically understanding, okay, this is
our job now, this is how we keep it going.

And I think whoever the next chairman
is, ideally, I know we kinda made mention

is to bring in Sarah along the way that
the way that you know, Fri McWaters.

Did with Sarah Vega.

Maybe it's just in the
name, you succeed yourself.

But I think having someone that if it's
not someone who knows credit unions,

it's imperative that they have someone
who knows credit unions coming in.

'cause it's gonna start day one
for whoever takes Kyle's place.

Alonzo Swann: And just one more
thing mark the agency is blessed,

for lack of a better term, to
have Larry Fazi on and Kelly Lake.

Up in the executive director's spot.

Now those are folk who came like me, like
you mentioned, who was an examiner and

came all the way up through the ranks.

So they, they know the agency
from the top to the bottom.

Treichel: Yeah.

There's a lot of corporate knowledge
in that office, which can help

help run the triage of how do
we rebuild from the 27% down.

And my last thoughts link
back to something John said,

the jokers in the deck.

My dad played cards a lot.

He played poker.

He played all sorts of other exotic
games and when we were sitting

around the table he had this
funny line that I always remember.

If you asked him what was wild,
he said nothing but the dealer.

And maybe in the dealer.

This, as we circle back to the board.

Maybe the dealer's Trump in
this instance because what he

does can be viewed as wild.

So

Geoff Bacino: that's great.

Treichel: All right guys thank
you so much for your time.

I know that we wanted to get
this done quick and I appreciate

you accommodating schedules to.

To record this, I'm gonna
go finish my coffee.

Have a great Thursday.

I'm gonna get this episode out
today, and we'll get together soon.

Thanks so much, guys.

Alonzo Swann: Thank you.

Take care, guys.

Treichel: You got it.

And listeners watchers,
thank you for watching.

This is Mark Trekel signing
off with Flying Colors.