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Treichel: Hey everyone.

This is Mark Treichel with another
episode of with flying colors.

I'm excited to be back with a former
guest and he's got one of his new

staff members on with him today.

I'm with the defense credit union
council CEO, Tony Hernandez.

Tony, how you doing today?

Tony: Doing great, Mark.

Thanks for having us again.

And it's always a pleasure to be here.

Treichel: You got it.

Yeah.

I look forward to chatting with you today.

And with Tony is Jason Sturrock,
who's the new head of advocacy for

the defense credit union council.

Jason, it's a pleasure
to meet you here today.

Jason: Pleasure to be with you,
Mark, and I look forward to

talking to you and your listeners.

Treichel: You got it.

Tony you and I chatted, gosh,
I don't know, six, seven months

ago about what was going on at
the Defense Credit Union Council.

And we can, at the end, I want
to, pick your brain on that.

But We were also chatting together
a little bit on LinkedIn about

a recent Supreme court decision.

And that is the Chevron case.

And I had put a post out on LinkedIn
relative to Chevron and what I thought

it might mean for credit union guidance.

And that led to a little bit of
dialogue and we thought it'd be good

to get on here and talk through it.

With that, Tony, I think I'll turn it,
I'll turn it over to you when you started

hearing things about the Chevron case
and started having conversations and, or,

saw what I put on LinkedIn, what popped
into your head and then, and or Jason.

So Tony or Jason, this
is open to either of you.

Tony: Yeah when I saw, 1, when the Chevron
defense was overturned by the Supreme

Court and working with our team, with
Jason Jason and the rest of the team,

this wasn't just an incremental change.

This is a big change.

This is, I think, I always talk
about ecological stuff, right?

So this changes there.

This isn't just an environment, people
that have heard me speak or write.

I read my articles before, this isn't
taking caterpillars out of an ecosystem,

or simple as additive or subtractive.

This is ecological.

This changes the the the environment.

'cause whatever was eating the
cater, whatever was eating the

caterpillars is now starving.

And whatever the caterpillars
was eating is now thriving.

And so I think you're gonna see a
similar result in terms of, regulations

and enforcement, going forward.

And so this generates total change and
we're I'll let Jason talk this a little

bit more, but where I see this impacting
the industry is in the realm of advocacy.

And that we're going to
have a much more robust.

A much more active and a much more
engaged advocacy posture activity, and

then results, showing back to our members
to prove that concept, and I'm excited

because we just hired Jason Starock is
our new chief advocacy officer, and he and

I have been having some discussions with
the rest of the team and, Jason, feel free

to jump in and and offer your thoughts.

Jason: And Tony, to echo your comments,
the Chevron or the looper case that

reverse Chevron, after being up on the
Hill for almost a decade, this is seismic

in terms of the potential change you
could have on regulation, regulatory

activity and the power of Congress.

In a nutshell You're
going to see a 180 flip.

You're going to see many more
regulatory regulators be probably

less aggressive in terms of the
regulations that they want to put out.

But you're going to see a lot more
pushback by members in the court.

Specifically to credit unions,
there might be more pushback

against NCA regulations, etc.

So we have to see how that plays out
but Tony's 100 percent correct, is

that reversal of the Chevron doctrine
returns more power to Congress, that

it's going to be forced upon Congress
to specifically lay out what it wants to

happen, not just say, pass a law and say
the regulators will promulgate the rules.

No, they want To give deference to
Congress to be able to that that

those rules are and the laws are
implemented with congressional intent.

And Tony is again correct.

Is that not just advocacy, but direct
advocacy that that partnership that we at

BCUC have with our members to go in and
know the offices and know the staffers

and know the members of Congress so that
it's a dating myself here a little bit,

but not too much, but the old Woody Hayes,
three yards and a cloud of dust, it's

going to be that type of advocacy again,
where there's going to be, it has to be

an incredibly tight communication and
cooperation and coordination with your

members as a trade association to get.

Change or enacted and or stop
other pieces of legislation.

So I think it's going to it's.

Not to put too big of a bow on it, but
it's a new day in Washington in terms

of how advocacy will be done to impact
and get the changes that credit unions

need to be able to serve our members.

Treichel: And the three yards and a
cloud of dust, I'm a former golden

gopher and we lost Woody Hayes.

As long as what he hates
coached we lost to him.

And we're in a world of
a passing game offense.

And comparing that to, to, to
Chevron's been out there and Chevron

is the passing game, but then
Chevron slipped, flipped on its head.

And.

Because Congress could rely upon the
fact that if they wrote something

ambiguous, they can leave it to
the agencies to interpret that with

their better judgment of their long
skilled staff that they have now.

Now they're saying you can't be ambiguous.

And if it's ambiguous, it
comes up to the courts.

So Congress has built a passing game
and they got to go back to running

because they're going to have to give,
be less ambiguous if they want to be

crystal clear about what they want done.

And as you, as the three of us know, you
think you write the perfect sentence, But

each word in that sentence has a meeting.

And when you go to the dictionary.

com, you'll find three, four, and
then there's the legal meaning of it.

And so it's a great concept to
remove ambiguity, but do you

really remove ambiguity by, by.

I writing a rule that you think is
clear and then everybody else says,

yeah, but you didn't think of this.

You didn't think of this.

You didn't think of this.

So any thoughts on that?

Tony: Go ahead, Jason.

Jason: No, Mark, you're
a hundred percent, right?

Put a comma on the wrong spot and
you've made a lot of changes under law.

And I think that it gets
back to the importance of.

Being in Washington and being
with your member and walking them

through the importance of why this
change either needs to happen or

not happen and understanding them.

And, the importance of also it leans
upon, I think it devolves power away

from national trade associations
down into their individual members.

Because they're the ones that
have those personal connections

with the members of Congress.

I can remember with my nearly decade
up on the hill, my, my former boss

would say, I don't care what the,
the, the, what a lobbyist in D.

C.

Tell me what the people back
home are going to tell me.

And I think that's incredibly important.

And be able to pass something with
the lack of ambiguity so that it

doesn't immediately go into court
is going to be incredibly important.

Mark, you're out.

We're in it.

We've walked.

We're through the looking glass.

We're in a new environment.

We don't know what rules or regulations
that have been put in place now have

a better chance to be challenged.

Or what's been what has been
imagined, over at the N.

C.

U.

A.

Or any regulators, across the board
might not get advanced moving forward.

We at D.

C.

U.

C.

Are looking forward to that challenge.

Because we think it plays right into
our strengths of having that we like

to call ourselves a little more nimble.

To be able to respond on a dime to
what our members need to fix the

and overcome the obstacles they are
facing to being able to serve our

nation's active duty service members,
veterans and as importantly, their

families all across this country.

So Tony, I didn't mean
to interrupt you there.

Tony: No, I just going to and then
I, now I have 2 thoughts 1 that Mark

touched on and then 1 that you did, but
Mark you mentioned, writing writing the

laws and and the importance of words.

And I remember, you're trying to
write a mission statement in a

room full of dozen people that is
a very difficult exercise because.

You come up with the vision, but right
in the mission statement and Jason,

you mentioned it just placement of
something as simple as a comma can change

the whole meaning of that sentence.

But then you get word choice and I used to
hate doing this when I was in the military

was writing the the mission statement.

I'm like why do we need to change it?

Our mission is still the same, but
it was just because we like change

and we always joked about happy to
glad, and then glad back to happy.

And then you end up with some
other word, enjoyable and each

of those has a different meaning.

And so I think Congress is going to
need a lot more input and writing

better laws, but Jason also touched
on something about talking to members.

And having that 1 on 1
connection with those CEOs.

Or those general councils or their
their community relations personnel.

And being able to reach out to a trade
association that will return their calls.

Pick up the phone and listen to them.

Have a good dialogue and then, come
up with a with a clear strategy.

That's that's ready to go.

What I like about D.

C.

U.

C.

And you see it, in the
red, white and blue.

And I know the viewers
can't see, the screens here.

But Jason, I have, the flag behind
us and it's the United States flag.

And that's a common bond that unites us.

And we try to look at everything through
the prism of what's best for our military

and our veterans, but also what's good
for those communities in which they live.

And getting back to Jason's point all
politics is local and taking that local

that local viewpoint, that constituent
viewpoint and then translating back into

policy is going to be very important.

So I'm excited about where D.

C.

U.

C.

is at and where we're going.

But it's not going to be an easy
walk, 3 yards in a cloud of dust,

blocking and tackling fundamentals.

Those are all going to have to come back
into play and it's not going to cut it.

Just to simply write a letter and,
wipe your hands clean letters.

Letters are nice, but like Jason said,
it's going to take actual visit, retail

politics, both with members of Congress
and with constituents back home.

Jason: And I think it's also as
incredibly important to have Is we're

trying to pass legislation that is
has as little ambiguity as possible

that members of Congress and as
importantly, their staffs are helping

work on the legislation that they need.

As little ambiguity from us and
our members as possible go back

to the issue of CRA, which has
popped its kind of head up again.

In the Senate over the last few weeks DCEC
laid it out there, like for our members,

this is whether it's CRA, CRC, CRA light
don't call it CRA, but do the same things

as CRA and any proposed legislation.

It's not something I
remember support here.

The things we can all agree upon.

We just can't agree upon.

We just can't go down this road with you.

So I think it's that type of honest
discussion which I hope that the

this decision will help foster
with Members back home, us at the

national trade association level
and with members of Congress.

Treichel: And the concept of of
being present of meeting with your

constituency, you meeting with your
constituency face to face and then the

people of your organization meeting
with Congress, I can compare that to,

when I was at NCUA as executive director
or regional director, and one of the

board members would meet with DCUC.

Or they'd meet with another
trade association or they'd meet

with a particular credit union.

And, they'd walk the halls, they
talked to all three board members.

And inevitably later that day, later
that week, later that month, there would

be some discussions at the board level
with me saying, there was this really

good idea or we, I mentioned the good
idea we thought we had to these groups,

and they pointed out X, Y, and Z Mark.

I want you to start thinking about that.

And can you ask the regional
directors, if we do this, the

DCUC said this might be an impact.

Get some feedback.

That fate, here we are talking
on, on, on zoom and I'm virtual.

I'm very nimble now because I'm
a remote working for myself.

NCOA was nimble because they were a
small institution and you're nimble.

Because of the size of your organization
but but you can have a lot of

power in that nimbleness, right?

Because you represent so many people and
because there's not a huge bureaucracy for

them within your organization that allows
you to go move quickly to get the messages

to the people that need to have it.

Jason: No, Mark, you're 100 percent right.

And the fact that our nimbleness and
our ability to respond or move quickly

is also based upon our membership.

Just a recent example we would find out
in, in the house markup on the on the

NDAA that there was a proposed amendment
to, this was like on a Tuesday afternoon,

Tony and I are walking through security
at the Cannon house office building,

we get a text, Hey, did you see this?

And within 10 minutes because of that
relationship that has been built up

over time that trust between us at the
national level and our members, we had

calls going from CEOs from that state,
that district going into those members

offices and then across the country, to
where that amendment is then pulled off.

And then when, then they try to push the
amendment again, In front of the rules

committee, we do the exact same thing
that we are blessed by who our members

are and their ability to organize and the
fact that when they're when they weigh

in on an issue, they know it's important
not only for defense credit unions, but

the entire credit union movement as well.

And it's something we lean into
on is there a bit our ability to.

Organize and mobilize and as we're
reimagining how we're going to do advocacy

at DCUC that's going to probably be,
as a, we'll call it the secret sauce on

the big Mac our ability to be able to
in affect change throughout the halls

of Congress and with our regulators,

Tony: you mentioned the agency as well.

Certainly our relationship
with the NCOA board.

And the executive staff matters as
much to, it's got to be a common effort

and everybody has the role to play.

But I think, I think the Jason said
the secret sauce, I'm going to say

the secret spice is communication.

And just talking and I think when
you're clear about your intentions.

Then you knock down a lot of
that ambiguity, moving forward.

And then what resulted from those
intentions is what's going to matter.

But I don't think this is
going to be something quick.

It's not going to be like, wow,
we're in a new environment.

This is going to take a couple of
years to unfold as court cases,

make their way, or as cases make
their way through the courts.

Legislation makes its way through
committees and onto the floor

and onto the president's desk.

We're just going to see this.

What I said was ecological change,
just unfolding, very slowly, but

it's not the new environment anymore.

And I think speed matters.

Communication matters.

And then good old good
old fashioned work ethic.

Treichel: And yeah, it's going to be,
it's going to be a long journey to, to

what Post Chevron rules and regulations
and government the workings of government

are, and there's going to be, situations
where trade associations American

bankers association, occasionally sues
over the field of membership, right?

They've sued in the past.

Will they be watching for some field
of membership that gets approved

where, okay, under Chevron, this
might not This might not, this might

be ambiguous now where we're going
to go seek the answer for a judge.

And so you're going to see different
strategies of different groups

where there's something that's done.

That is, that appears to be something
that can be challenged, which

couldn't be challenged before.

And the decision I'm
going to paraphrase here.

The decision said that
it doesn't automatically.

mean that anything that was
decided can be challenged.

There has to be a hook to it
that allows it to be challenged.

But some new decision by a government
agency that relies on that past decision

is would clearly be a state of facts.

I think we're where we could see that.

So and then another I was talking with
the client who had a legal background.

And he was saying that, when you go
through law school, there is a class.

It is, the class is Chevron.

They teach, for a full quarter or a
semester or whatever you do in law school.

I'm not a lawyer.

I hang around with a lot of them.

So I think I know the law sometimes,
but whether that's a six month

class, it used to mean everything
was purple and now it's yellow.

So they got to rewrite that class for the
The school year that starts in September,

yet they don't know what it all means.

So they're going to start, they're
going to be, start thinking about

the kind of things we're talking
through here in much greater detail.

But that, so there's this
sandstorm of the new world that

we're in, that sand will settle.

And it's good that you guys are going
to be there for your members to to,

as that dust is settling, the sand is
settling to, To be able to pivot to be

able to move nimbly to make sure that
your credit unions are well represented

Jason: now.

And Mark, you're right.

There is that other side of the
coin, where Chevron had been used

if you were pushing on a field of
membership or other issues that.

Would benefit your
industry or credit union.

You would cheer for it.

But now there is a there is this change.

So we're gonna have to be not only
looking on the offensive side, but

also on the defensive side as well.

To help ensure that what has been
gained and worked for credit unions and

regulatory advancement is not lost due to
our, as you pointed out, our I'll add it

are much more well funded corporate work.

Transcribed friends so to speak.

And I'm sure they've been looking at their
chops to be able to advocate these things.

You can only look at some of the
prominent ICBA and ABA people.

I've already tweeted or talked about
this issue, but I think that this we have

an incredibly strong leg to stand on.

As we've talked about what has been used
to expand credit unions authority to be

able to serve the areas mainly that banks
have left behind or turned their back on

when you're talking field of membership.

But it is something that we're
going to have to monitor.

And I think with DCUC and Tony's
leadership we're going to be there

as you talked about standing up
and working with their members.

Treichel: Very good.

Any Jason, Tony, any more last
thoughts on Chevron before we pivot

on what else is going on at VCUC?

Tony: No, but you mentioned law school
because my wife and I just we just hosted

some of my daughter's friends, for dinner.

We were talking, she asked, one of
'em was in law school right now, and

she asked me what my opinion was on
the Pope Chevron, because just like

you said, there is a whole class on
that and that's all gonna change.

But she said that the the bar exam
that won't change for a while.

I think she said it's like a three year
waiting period for before you start

seeing it show up in the bar exam.

Because it takes a while.

Yeah, this is going to unfold
over a long period of time.

But rather than wait, like Jason said,
you got to have that transition team.

You got to go from offense to
defense back to offense and

just be nimble and on your feet.

And that just goes along the
lines with what where we're D.

C.

U.

C.

's headed.

And in terms of how we're going to
position ourselves within the industry

in, in, in terms of serving our members
and working with others and the other

trade associations and leagues as well.

Treichel: Very good.

And I think last time we spoke there
was pre CUNA AFQ merger, right?

And so there, that was two voices.

Yeah, I, there, there's a book.

I refer to a lot called
the wisdom of crowds.

And the more advocates that are out
there for credit unions, obviously the

merger created synergies and was a good
thing and the membership wanted it, but

there's one less voice and your voice is
still out there and it might have a so

any thoughts relative to that concept?

Like the.

The growing influence that DCUC
might be able to have just by either

bringing in new members or being
another place where a credit union

can go to get their voice heard.

Tony: We've always felt that we
have a a unique voice, right?

It doesn't have to be a different voice or
an adversarial voice with everything going

on in the industry, but when you talk
about, active duty military and veterans.

That opens up a lot of doors on
both sides of the aisle, right?

Credit unions are great.

But when you talk about military credit
unions and veterans serving credit unions.

That just seems to open up a whole
lot, a whole lot more opportunity.

And we we want to take we want to respect
that and honor that and take advantage of

that, in terms of providing that voice.

Whether it's it's supporting what the
industry wants to do and adding more

power to that, or redirecting a thought
and saying have you considered this

instead, here's all these effects.

And I think that's important.

We want to be part of the chorus.

We don't want to be part
of, singing our own song.

But there's different
voices in that chorus.

Jason, do you have any
any thoughts on that?

Jason: No, I think Tony,
you're 100 percent correct.

And, our DCU, DCUC motto is we speak
military is that there isn't an office

door that is closed to us in Congress
because of who we primarily represent

in terms of, the armed services,
veterans, and, I would lay that there

is very few credit unions across this
country that don't have at least one

veteran or family member of a veteran
as part of their field of membership.

And so our ability is Tony talks
to us to be part of that chorus.

To help sing with one voice, but
make sure that all the voices

are heard is incredibly important
because we can approach an issue from

another angle that many not heard.

Tony did an incredible job.

I think it was in February.

When the credit, when the Marshall
Durbin issue popped up again on the

credit card competition act sending a
letter directly to, chairman Reed and

ranking member wicker talking about
and other members of the Senate talking

about how passage of this bill impacts.

servicemen and women and their families
and the ability to access credit.

No other association or organization
has that credibility to speak on

behalf of these specific groups.

And when you add that all as a part
of the stew that you're making, it

only makes it, it makes it better.

It makes it stronger.

And it should be as part of that
collaborative and cooperative

principles that we all are
part of our credit union DNA.

Tony: The nice thing is that Chairman
Reed, and several members on the Senate

Armed Services Committee are also on
the Senate Banking Committee as well.

And so when you can, when the same thing
happens on the house side, and that's

where we add a very powerful voice, when
we can boil it down and it's not just

access to credit, it's loss of security.

You don't want to be in a
deployed environment and some

merchants using some cheap.

Unsecured network, because it
helps them with their profit line.

Meanwhile, the the service members
personal information is compromised

and now they got to worry about
it when they're in a firefight

in some country overseas, right?

Defending our interests
or our allies interest.

Or or some aircraft mechanic,
who's adjusting the oxygen

bottle on a, on an F 15 fighter.

You don't want that to go wrong because
it puts that pilot's life at stake,

they're just, countless examples where
we think the credit card competition

act would be bad and why we oppose it.

But when you add that sort of spin.

Now it becomes real.

And now you have it, support in both
committees because there's an impact and

we can do that pretty much on any ledges.

Any legislation we can find a
military tie going forward and

Jason: Tony talked about the American
Privacy Act, the letter that we led on it

while they pulled it from consideration
from House Energy and Commerce

Committee, Chairman McRodgers did.

We talked about that very specific
issue and talked about, the fact that

you're putting additional requirements
on us as a financial institution, but

you're letting groups like Target and
others, in our retailers, not have to

live up to the same GLBA requirements
to protect the data security.

So Tony's 100 percent right.

If you're overseas or you're worried
about that, you just got hacked and

somebody's draining your, your credit
union account or something like that.

You need that war fighter in
the right mind of or right

frame of mind to do their job.

And we can speak to that about how
passing legislation or not including

parts of legislation doesn't help
the overall financial health of that

military family or the veteran's family.

Tony: Yeah.

With that with that American Privacy
Rights Act, I think what we foot stomped

was that we need to include the merchants.

If you don't include the merchants
in that, then you left you left

a huge hole in your security.

And the thing is now you start, now
your information sold and you remember

might be deployed, but all those
mailers and internet ads and stuff

are hitting the family email account.

Treichel: Sure.

When they don't, they
got enough to deal with.

Cause the loved one's gone.

Tony: Yeah, exactly.

And and when you start telling those
types of stories or those examples,

light bulbs go off and they go, ah,
it gets back to a Chevron, right?

We got her right.

American privacy acts sounded good, but
without specificity, and I keep screwing

up that word, but without being specific,
you can miss something really big.

So that's where we see D.

C.

U.

C.

Playing a greater role.

Treichel: That's great.

Those are great examples.

So any other questions I should have
asked or anything you want to talk

about what you've got on your agenda,
the set, we just hit the, we're just

starting the second half of 2024.

Anything big popping that you
want to make the listeners aware

of for the second half of 2024.

Tony: We got a big election coming
up, that's the other seismic

change one way or the other.

Even if if the president's reelected.

You have a different team, and if
you have the we have a new president

that changes everything too.

And so just being ready for those.

Plus the balance of power in Congress,
those are things we always look for.

1 thing that keeping our eyes on the
lame duck session, because you get

all kinds of legislation that the
members aren't as tied to their voters

because they just had the election.

And being on our toes,
Jason knows all about that.

And Jason, anything with
the lame duck session?

Jason: That, that keeps me up at night
because you've got 100 plus members of the

house and 20 plus members of the Senate
that They've either decided to go home or

been asked by the people to return home.

So they're not really they're like,
Sure, I'll vote for, tax and credit

unions are sure you know I you know
they don't care anymore, and I'm not

saying that in any way it's like there
is no election to hold them accountable.

I think also one of the.

Important things that we have coming
up in the second half of this year is

our annual meeting down in Florida.

And I think you're going to see a lot
of exciting things announced as DCUC

continues to grow its role in advocacy.

And we look forward to work with
anybody any credit union any

association any member of Congress to
help advance credit union priorities.

Because at the end of it, it Our number
one goal is to help credit union CEOs

be able to serve their members better.

Treichel: Very good.

Very good.

I appreciate the opportunity
to chat with you today.

I look forward to seeing what sort
of announcements might be coming

out about that that meeting down in
Florida and The tweaks that you'll be

making operationally in that regard.

And guys, thanks so much
for being here today.

And listeners, I want to thank
you for listening as always.

I hope you'll listen again soon.

This is Mark Treichel signing
off with flying colors.

Thank you for joining us on this episode
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